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Topic: Timing Question?

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miller19j

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Posted: Mar. 31 2003,2:42 pm

Post # 1

Now that I have broken in my cam and am about ready to get out on the water I need to know what to set my timing to, and how. I have a timing light but am not sure how to properly use it. I understand the basic principle but what rpm do I set the timing at and what should it be set to? It is currently set a 10 degrees btdc roughly for the break in.

Once again any help would be appreciated.

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Posted: Mar. 31 2003,6:05 pm

Post # 2

Quote (miller19j @ Mar. 31 2003,2:42 pm)

I'll set ya straight but first, need a little info on the motor!, compression, how much cam, RPM range, type of gas you run and what do you have for distributer?. BTW, what kind of timing light do you have?, does it have a dial back on it?. If the motor is top secret, just PM me the info!.

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miller19j

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Posted: Mar. 31 2003,6:15 pm

Post # 3

Not top secret at all. Not all that exciting either.

Chevy 454 .030 over
9.5 to 1 compression.
Isky 278 Hyd Megacam

I know zero about cams and this one was recommended by Ed Iskenderian for my motor and jet combination.

Lobe center 110 deg
Intake duration 278 deg valve lift .525
Exhaust duration 278 deg valve lift .525
Distributor is a Mallory single point.
Edelbrock performer RPM intake

I will be running on pump gas. As far as the rpm range goes I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think it will go above 5k I spend most of my time in the 3k range (pulling skiers). If there is anything else you need to know let me know

Thanks!

Edited by miller19j on Mar. 31 2003,6:16 pm

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Posted: April 01 2003,5:02 am

Post # 4

Seems like you got a nice ski boat motor there. My first suggestion would be to lose that antique distributer and get an HEI, a lot more reliable than the points. For timing, 38 total in by 2800 with 10 initial should give smooth operation without detonation while running junk gas, you can always bump it up a bit to try it and see if it runs better, if it don't just back it off. Now if you don't know how the distributer is setup, the easiest way is to get a $2 timing tape for the balancer, that way you can see what it's doing. When you time it, set the total not the initial, bring the motor up to about 2800 and set it at 38, now look at you're initial, should be around 10. Anytime you don't know what's in the unit always check total advance, that's the important number. If these settings are close, take it out and try it, if it runs smooth with no detonation, it should be ok. You can play with it and see if it improves, if not put it back and forget about it and have fun!..Hope this helps!...

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miller19j

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Posted: April 01 2003,8:09 am

Post # 5

Thanks that does help.

The antique distributor is going to stay for now. The budget is currently wearing thin, but that is one of the next things to upgrade. I will get a timing tape and go at it.

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Posted: April 01 2003,8:23 am

Post # 6

Quote (miller19j @ April 01 2003,8:09 am)

Thanks that does help.

The antique distributor is going to stay for now. Ã‚Â The budget is currently wearing thin, but that is one of the next things to upgrade. I will get a timing tape and go at it.

I forgot to mention this, you don't have to get rid of your distributor, you can get a kit to change it over to electronic ignition and they are a no brainer to install, be cheaper than buying a whole new unit!..

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miller19j

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Posted: April 01 2003,8:44 am

Post # 7

Yea I was checking those out. I am not sure what road I am going to take.

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Posted: April 01 2003,8:49 am

Post # 8

Regardless which way you go, it's still better than the points!.. :laugh

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Posted: April 01 2003,10:27 pm

Post # 9

Miller - you should be able to find a better distributor used. Go post in HB that you are looking for one - I am sure someone will hook you up. What does your budget look like? I bet you could find one for under $50.

I am a fan of MSD/Crane types of ignition. I have a Crane Hi6R that works sweet. I think the best part of these types of ignitions is the multiple spark start. Even flooded, they start your motor with ease. When you get the budget, I would recomend this.

I run my timing at 38 locked out - no advance - it is just always at 38. I have lower compression and a high torque starter, but there are tricks to make a stock starter work with a locked out timing and higher compression. Locked out timing may not give a jet boat much performance difference, but it made a huge difference in the bottom end power on my boat. Since jets rev pretty easy, locked out may not bring any performance advantage.

wadaya think speed freak?

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Posted: April 02 2003,7:05 am

Post # 10

I can not see running the timing locked out unless it's a full on drag race deal where there is no part throttle operation. An engine will always run smoother with a curve. The key is to achieve the right curve for a given application. Since I don't want to run race gas, I keep it at 38 total and I have 24 in the mag which gives me 14 initial and it's all in by 2800. With this, I get easy starting, good idle and smooth accelleration and no detonation. The key to easy starting with locked out timing is to crank the motor then turn the ignition on..

As far as miller's deal goes, he has an almost stock motor and he's using his rig for pulling skiers and cruising. A nice smooth curve will surely make it more enjoyable to drive and he don't have to worry about detonation since he wants to be able run plain ole pump gas!. This has always worked for me!.. Just my .02... :rolleys

Spead Freak out!. :laugh

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HolyMoly

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Posted: April 02 2003,7:32 am

Post # 11

I have never ran locked out until I had my blower motor, so I have no idea how that works in stock applications. I know blower motors also like a lot of timing. I also run race fuel. Mine does run smooth in all ranges. I would actually say overall it runs better in every range locked out.

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Posted: April 02 2003,7:41 am

Post # 12

Yeah, and yours ain't no stocker either!.. :laugh

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HolyMoly

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Posted: April 03 2003,8:36 am

Post # 13

Quote (GoFastRacer @ April 02 2003,7:41 am)

Yeah, and yours ain't no stocker either!.. :laugh

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miller19j

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Posted: April 05 2003,3:50 pm

Post # 14

If I set the timing to 10 at idle it wont idle below 1200 rpm. And runs pretty rough throughout the range. But if I bump it up to about 20 at idle and 42 at 2800 it runs really smooth. All of this is done without a load sitting on the trailer. Is this to much? Am I going to hurt something? If I bump it up even more it seems to run smother but is hard to start.

I am basing my readings of the Summit timing tape and I am pretty sure I got the correct one. I measured my balancer and bought the one of the same size. So I think that it is correct.

The good news is that my new carburetor seems to be working fine.

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Posted: April 07 2003,8:28 am

Post # 15

Hmmm, is this a distributor that you have run before that's tried and true?, is your timing tape on correctly?, it's easy to mess up on that, I've done it before!. Sounds like something is way off. When it get's hard to crank the engine, you're too far advanced. If you have 20 initial and 42 total, you would have 16 initial and 38 total, should run. 42 is too much, especially with pump gas. Double check the tape, make sure it's wrapped the right way and the zero marks are lined up!.. :confused

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miller19j

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Posted: April 07 2003,8:40 am

Post # 16

I will double check the tape again. The distributor is the one that was on the boat last season and it worked fine. I did not check the timing before I pulled it apart. In hind site that probably would have been a good idea.

The starting problem I was having is probably due to a bad connection with my starter. I cleaned the cables and put in some copper washers to enlarge the contact surface area and the starting problem is fine now. Well at least it cranks easier.

I will take a picture of the timing tape tonight and see if it is on wrong.

Thanks for all the help!

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blown 472

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Posted: April 07 2003,8:44 am

Post # 17

Quote (HolyMoly @ April 02 2003,7:32 am)

I have never ran locked out until I had my blower motor, so I have no idea how that works in stock applications. Ã‚Â I know blower motors also like a lot of timing. Ã‚Â I also run race fuel. Ã‚Â Mine does run smooth in all ranges. Ã‚Â I would actually say overall it runs better in every range locked out.

Really? I was told on both my blown motors no more that 30 to 32 degrees.

If quizzes are quizzical, what are tests???

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Posted: April 07 2003,8:46 am

Post # 18

The reason I asked about the distributor is I've seen new distributors out of phase and that will drive you nuts trying to figure what's wrong, but that settles that, we can eliminate that part.

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HolyMoly

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Posted: April 07 2003,9:04 am

Post # 19

Quote (blown 472 @ April 07 2003,7:44 am)

Quote (HolyMoly @ April 02 2003,7:32 am)

Really? I was told on both my blown motors no more that 30 to 32 degrees.

I believe it really depends on the type of fuel you run. Blowers (especially roots style) generate a lot of heat - which can lead to predetonation in some fuels. I usually run C-16 (or C 12) which has no problem with the advance and boost combo.

When I run a mix of pump gas, I adjust my boost retard until the predetonation goes away. With staight 91, I am supposed to set the retard 3 degrees for every 1 lb of boost. At 12 lbs of boost - timing is at 2 degrees for pump gas. I have never run staight pump. Closest thing was 1/2 C16 and 1/2 91. Ran good, but I never got on it that hard for very long - and set the retard at 1 degree for every 1 lb of boost - even though I did not get any predetonation with the mix, I still set the retard to be on the safe side.

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blown 472

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Posted: April 07 2003,9:16 am

Post # 20

I see, I just mix 5 to 6 gallons of race gas to 25 gallon tank as it is pain in the ass to get and if I forget to get some on the way home from work, well you know. I was reading about detination and what all it does to the motor, nasty stuff.

If quizzes are quizzical, what are tests???

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miller19j

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Posted: April 07 2003,6:47 pm

Post # 21

I rechecked the timing tonight and the lowest I could set it at idle and keep it running was.

20 btdc at 1000 rpm 32 btdc at 2900/3000 rpm

Then if I set it at 38 at 2900 it ended up at

24 btdc at 1000 rpm 38 btdc at 2900/3000 rpm

Here is a picture of my timing tape.

I left it at 24 at 1000 and 38 at 2900. It seemed to run better that way. Is this ok?

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HolyMoly

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Posted: April 07 2003,7:24 pm

Post # 22

I had a similar problem with my 350. I could never set timing with a light as it never ran right. So I would set it by hand and run it. I would advance it until it pinged.

Turned out to be the wrong timing pointer. I would check against a stock pointer. It was hard to tell it was the wrong one as it fit perfectly.

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Posted: April 08 2003,8:01 am

Post # 23

Quote (miller19j @ April 07 2003,5:47 pm)

I rechecked the timing tonight and the lowest I could set it at idle and keep it running was.

20 btdc at 1000 rpm Ã‚Â 32 btdc at 2900/3000 rpm

Then if I set it at 38 at 2900 it ended up at

24 btdc at 1000 rpm Ã‚Â 38 btdc at 2900/3000 rpm

Here is a picture of my timing tape.

I left it at 24 at 1000 and 38 at 2900. It seemed to run better that way. Is this ok?

Well, the tape looks right, so much for that!. Did you check your pointer at TDC for accuracy?, some of those leave a lot to be desired!.

Seems like you got waaay too much lead in the distributor according to your numbers for an almost stock motor. If you set your total at 38, when you read your initial at idle, you shoud have 10 or 12 and it should start advancing emmediately to 38 and be all in by 2800 or 3000 max!.

Dumb question: Are you running a vacuum advance??. :confused

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miller19j

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Posted: April 08 2003,8:26 am

Post # 24

No it is a mechanical advance. I am not sure if that is the proper terminology but it has some sort of centrifugal mechanism inside it.

I did check the top dead center when I was assembling. But I did not do it with the timing cover on. I bolted the pointer on by itself and used a dial indicator on the #1 piston. That is the only variable that I could think is different. The pointer does have some slop in it.

If I set the timing at 10 I canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t get it to idle and it runs really rough. It also seems to vary when I set it that low. 10 -12 as the engine lopes roughly.

Is there a way to check the timing pointer now that everything is assembled?

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blown 472

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Posted: April 08 2003,9:02 am

Post # 25

Do youi have really light springs on the advance?? if so you might be getting into advance while idling. Did you recurve dist at all?

If quizzes are quizzical, what are tests???

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52 replies since Mar. 31 2003,2:42 pm

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