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Napanutt
Pisces
Boater
Not too far from water
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Posted: June 05 2003,10:35 pm |
Post # 27 |
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O.K.,my turn...When I first got my boat,it developed a knock (rod bearing),figured,o.k.,I rebuilt an engine in auto shop in high school (20 years ago),this can't be that hard.Had crank re-worked ,rod re-sized,block worked,got complete gasket kit,got a couple of measuring tools from a mechanic friend of mine (inside mic,dial indicator for end play),read plenty of literature,recruited wife and went to town...come to find out that the timing cover was too pitted (thought gasket sealer would fill gaps)...ran the thing for a day on 50-50 (water and oil)...shot rod into pan.Moral of story,someone told me if you REALLY don't know want you're doing,boat engines are a lot less forgiving than a car engine can be...I believe them now.
Just my rambled .02.
Deal with it!
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GoFastRacer
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Posted: June 06 2003,7:39 am |
Post # 30 |
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| Quote (miller19j @ June 05 2003,9:11 pm) | Gofast,
Go on, Don’t stop some of us would really like to learn from your experience! I admittedly don’t know jack about building engines. I know how to run a Lathe and Mill and use measuring tools so I am a little familiar with the machining operations although they are on different machines(But the principles are the same). But assembling was new to me and I learned by reading books that all seemed to contradict each other.
When I chose my machine shop I went to a mechanic that I went to High School with and trust and asked for his recommendation. He said you want a cheap one or a good one. He recommended a good one and said I would pay more but would get better results.
When I took my parts to the machine shop I told the guy that this was my first engine and I need a little guidance. He went through everything with me and explained the different options. We spent about 6 hours going through my parts and selecting new parts.
He told me he would double check all the measurements before he delivered the parts to me. But I checked them again just to be sure I was paranoid about doing things wrong.
I think that I did everything to the best of my ability and with what I knew then but I am always willing to learn more and would love to hear more of your recommendations.
Sorry for the novel
Brad |
Sounds like you found a good shop. Not too many will take the time to help someone that's trying to learn, they just take your money and see yaa!, like they say, "you get what you pay for". I wasn't that lucky, I learned everything the hard way didn't have anyone to teach me, just did a lot of reading and listening but I was determined to learn. The biggest thing I learned is that anyone that knows which end of a wrench is which can put a motor together(just check out the Mexican production line at a fleet rebuilders once, LOL), but to build a motor and maintain it, it takes knowledge(and it don't come overnight), time and patience and I still don't know shit compared to some of these guys, I'm still learning stuff all the time. So if I can save anybody some grief, I'm more than willing to help but I can only relate to my own experiences!.. 
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GoFastRacer
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Posted: June 06 2003,7:45 am |
Post # 31 |
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| Quote (Napanutt @ June 05 2003,10:35 pm) | O.K.,my turn...When I first got my boat,it developed a knock (rod bearing),figured,o.k.,I rebuilt an engine in auto shop in high school (20 years ago),this can't be that hard.Had crank re-worked ,rod re-sized,block worked,got complete gasket kit,got a couple of measuring tools from a mechanic friend of mine (inside mic,dial indicator for end play),read plenty of literature,recruited wife and went to town...come to find out that the timing cover was too pitted (thought gasket sealer would fill gaps)...ran the thing for a day on 50-50 (water and oil)...shot rod into pan.Moral of story,someone told me if you REALLY don't know want you're doing,boat engines are a lot less forgiving than a car engine can be...I believe them now.
Just my rambled .02. |
Well, you got an education there huh!..  Boat motors are more forgiving?, I dought that, it don't know where it's at!.  
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GoFastRacer
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Posted: June 06 2003,7:55 am |
Post # 32 |
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| Quote (AZKC @ June 06 2003,7:37 am) | | Quote (blown 472 @ June 06 2003,5:46 am) | | Sounds like me last summer. Â Azkc, you should pick up the how to hot rod big block chevy book, I think they have them at book stores. |
I've had that book since I was 20 years old. Great book  Should probably dig it out for a refresher course.
In thinking through this I am in agreement with the oil starvation theory. Lets put this in the mix. I believe my oil level was low by as much as 1 1/2 to 2 quarts and my boat was riding extremely bow high alot of the time due to the fact I have a porpoising problem. And when I'd try to plane it out it was bouncing like a mofo.
Is it possible that even with the Milidon jet boat pan that the #1 and #2 journal were suffering from oil starvation due to the angle of motor(bow high) and/or motion of the oil(from porpoising) If this is possible I want to address it also before I hit the water again. Â
I'll agree that shade tree is a ticking time bomb, but this is the first time it would have bit me in the ass out of the 8 or so (stock type) motors I've slapped together. And the funny part is a few of the trick, measured out, everything perfect(race type) motors are the ones that blew up like Mount Saint Helens.
Keep the cards and letters coming folks all input is welcome and appreciated 
KC |
Did you have oil pressure at all times?, if you did then you wern't that low on oil. If you run out of oil in the pan, it will suck air. Also if that would be the case, the rest of the motor would be garbage. How are the mains?, do you have oil on top of the motor?. This is the same problem you had the first time right?. Seems like the problem wasn't solved with a rebuild?, something slipped by twice in a row!. Man, if that was me I couldnt sleep until I found out what caused it! 
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87 Cole
Cancer
MacGyver
Carlsbad, CA
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Posted: June 06 2003,8:31 am |
Post # 35 |
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| Quote (GoFastRacer @ June 05 2003,7:45 pm) | Something I'd like to point out!. In the 25+ yrs I been building motors for myself and others, I've only lost one (other than breaking parts racing). And that's only because I did the "if it turns over it's good" deal and it was in my daily driver, it lasted less than a 100 miles. That was a lesson learned. For one thing, machine shops are a dime a dozen and it's all production shit, if you want quality, YOU PAY and then you still don't trust it a 100%, you check evrything(assuming don't cut it) to make sure and you don't RUSH. Also if you don't have the tools for measuring(good ones are expensive), you do what it takes to get them, beg, borrow, steal, whatever but you need to use them to build a good motor. Another thing I learned the hard way is when you get the block done, you never let them put the cam bearings in, because unless you PAY EXTRA for them to  clean it, it ain't clean!. Good machine shops will tell you that!. I could go on and on about this but Doug would probably kick my ass off the board for taking up all the space. It's a real bitch to put your hard earned money into your favorite toy, only to have it turn to shit when a little time could have prevented it, not to mention double the cost!. Been down that road before, ain't no fun!...  |
Amen to EVERYTHING you said GFR. Take your time as this is what makes it right and enjoyable. Better to miss a few lake trips and have it running for years. Just my 0.02 cents
I wouldn't mind being the last man on Earth - just to see if all of those girls were telling me the truth.
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GoFastRacer
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Posted: June 07 2003,6:51 am |
Post # 36 |
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| Quote (87 Cole @ June 06 2003,8:31 am) | | Quote (GoFastRacer @ June 05 2003,7:45 pm) | | Something I'd like to point out!. In the 25+ yrs I been building motors for myself and others, I've only lost one (other than breaking parts racing). And that's only because I did the "if it turns over it's good" deal and it was in my daily driver, it lasted less than a 100 miles. That was a lesson learned. For one thing, machine shops are a dime a dozen and it's all production shit, if you want quality, YOU PAY and then you still don't trust it a 100%, you check evrything(assuming don't cut it) to make sure and you don't RUSH. Also if you don't have the tools for measuring(good ones are expensive), you do what it takes to get them, beg, borrow, steal, whatever but you need to use them to build a good motor. Another thing I learned the hard way is when you get the block done, you never let them put the cam bearings in, because unless you PAY EXTRA for them to  clean it, it ain't clean!. Good machine shops will tell you that!. I could go on and on about this but Doug would probably kick my ass off the board for taking up all the space. It's a real bitch to put your hard earned money into your favorite toy, only to have it turn to shit when a little time could have prevented it, not to mention double the cost!. Been down that road before, ain't no fun!... |
Amen to EVERYTHING you said GFR. Take your time as this is what makes it right and enjoyable. Better to miss a few lake trips and have it running for years. Just my 0.02 cents |
You got that right!..
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GoFastRacer
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Posted: June 07 2003,7:04 am |
Post # 37 |
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| Quote (AZKC @ June 06 2003,8:22 am) | I had oil pressure but it did fluctuate (sp) at higher rpm's. But I found a bad connection at the sender and thought that might be it, but that was on the third trip to the lake. I haven't torn the rest of it apart yet to ck the other bearings and stuff. Seems like plenty of oil up top, but I did have some lifter noise, but I thought it was an adjustment dealio.
Its the same failure but with a different crank and rods. Also different journals, 3&4 last time, 1&2 this time. As far as sleeping goes I just   more 
KC |
Well, in that case I would say it's time to look at the block!. Obviusly, there's something that was overlooked. I'd strip the thing down, every plug, cam bearings, everything and look around in there, then wash it down, run a brush through all the galleys. Bearings don't fry cause they feel like it, you need to find it or it will happen again!. BTW, are you running pressed or floating pins?, just curious!.. 
Maybe this is the problem! That don't go too well with putting motors together!..
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GoFastRacer
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Posted: June 08 2003,8:10 am |
Post # 39 |
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| Quote (Napanutt @ June 07 2003,5:56 pm) | | Yea,I've missed a few things brfore W.U.I.(wrenching under the influence) nothing too major,though, so far... |
One of these days!..
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GoFastRacer
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Posted: June 08 2003,5:17 pm |
Post # 41 |
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Damn that sucks sorry to hear that!.  Strip that block down, every plug, cam bearings, everything and start from scratch!. After you got the block from the machine shop the first time, did you thoughroly clean it?, I mean running a brush through the oil galleys with all the plugs out and no cam bearings in?, if not DO it now!!. If all the bearings are toast, there's shit in there. You need to scrub the shit out of it. I use "Super Clean" to begin with and then a final with soap and water, look down the passages and make sure you don't see anything!. You can't be too clean, there's a reason for all this shit and you need to find it or it will happen again!..
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AZKC
Leo
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Jack of all trades. Master of none.
Tucson
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1979 20ft Hawaiian Moonraker
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Posted: June 09 2003,9:38 am |
Post # 42 |
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| Quote (GoFastRacer @ June 08 2003,5:17 pm) | | Damn that sucks sorry to hear that!. Â Strip that block down, every plug, cam bearings, everything and start from scratch!. After you got the block from the machine shop the first time, did you thoughroly clean it?, I mean running a brush through the oil galleys with all the plugs out and no cam bearings in?, if not DO it now!!. If all the bearings are toast, there's shit in there. You need to scrub the shit out of it. I use "Super Clean" to begin with and then a final with soap and water, look down the passages and make sure you don't see anything!. You can't be too clean, there's a reason for all this shit and you need to find it or it will happen again!.. |
It was cleaned with brushes The mains looked like they got damaged by the debris from the rod bearings. I'm still leaning towards oil starvation, just havng a hard time proving to myself
KC
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blown 472
Leo
Al Bundy
us
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Posted: June 09 2003,12:50 pm |
Post # 44 |
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| Quote (GoFastRacer @ June 08 2003,5:17 pm) | | Damn that sucks sorry to hear that!. Â Strip that block down, every plug, cam bearings, everything and start from scratch!. After you got the block from the machine shop the first time, did you thoughroly clean it?, I mean running a brush through the oil galleys with all the plugs out and no cam bearings in?, if not DO it now!!. If all the bearings are toast, there's shit in there. You need to scrub the shit out of it. I use "Super Clean" to begin with and then a final with soap and water, look down the passages and make sure you don't see anything!. You can't be too clean, there's a reason for all this shit and you need to find it or it will happen again!.. |
And then when you get done with that, load it in the truck take it to the car wash and blast the hell out of it, all the passages and every thing, take a can of wd-40 then take it home and blow it out with air, then wd-40 and bag it till ready to work on it.
If quizzes are quizzical, what are tests???
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GoFastRacer
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Posted: June 09 2003,2:13 pm |
Post # 47 |
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| Quote (blown 472 @ June 09 2003,12:50 pm) | | Quote (GoFastRacer @ June 08 2003,5:17 pm) | | Damn that sucks sorry to hear that!. Â Strip that block down, every plug, cam bearings, everything and start from scratch!. After you got the block from the machine shop the first time, did you thoughroly clean it?, I mean running a brush through the oil galleys with all the plugs out and no cam bearings in?, if not DO it now!!. If all the bearings are toast, there's shit in there. You need to scrub the shit out of it. I use "Super Clean" to begin with and then a final with soap and water, look down the passages and make sure you don't see anything!. You can't be too clean, there's a reason for all this shit and you need to find it or it will happen again!.. |
And then when you get done with that, load it in the truck take it to the car wash and blast the hell out of it, all the passages and every thing, take a can of wd-40 then take it home and blow it out with air, then wd-40 and bag it till ready to work on it. |
I've got a dealio that I hook up the garden hose and my air hose to and it blasts way better than the car wash!..
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GoFastRacer
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Posted: June 09 2003,2:19 pm |
Post # 49 |
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Hey KC, why don't you go over and talk to Larry Peto, I think his shop is called Larry's Engine Service. I've known him since the 80's we both raced with NJBA, he's a cool guy and he does damn good work!..
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5-01-2024 Three Word Post.....The Next Generation.... (Rep.#18,909) from: GoFastRacer
